On this episode of Transformation Realness, I’m joined by Donald Knight, SVP of People and Culture at Warner Brothers and formerly Chief People Officer at Greenhouse Software. Donald is the kind of leader who doesn’t just talk the talk — he walks it, even when the ground is on fire. We dive into what it really means to be a people leader at an HR tech company, the rise of fractional HR leadership and why finding your village is critical to thriving in this ever-demanding profession.
Donald Knight reminds us that HR leadership isn’t for the faint of heart, but it’s also one of the most rewarding paths you can take. From navigating the complexities of HR tech to embracing the flexibility of fractional roles, Donald’s insights are a masterclass in resilience, authenticity and leading with purpose.
Do You Walk It Like You Talk It?
Donald breaks down the complexities of being a people leader at an HR tech company into three main layers, and honestly? It’s a balancing act like no other.
First, there’s the classic responsibility every CPO has: shepherding culture and supporting your people. That’s nothing new. But in an HR tech company, everyone on your team has some level of focus on delivering value to HR leaders and teams. “There’s a tendency for everyone to believe they’ve specialized in people, which I think is a good thing, at least aspirationally,” Donald says, with this caveat: “I do think that there’s some nuances around, have you actually walked in the shoes of the folks in the profession?”
Second, your peers aren’t just coworkers — they’re also customers. They expect you to advocate for their needs in product strategy meetings and even help them get better deals on renewals. “There’s an expectation from your peers … for you to be an advocate for them in those rooms, which I think is cool,” Donald says.
Lastly, you’ve got to be the face of the company. As a people leader, you’re expected to evangelize the brand — hopping on planes, speaking at events, and carrying the company’s message out into the world. That’s not just a bonus responsibility; it’s a core part of the role.
It’s a lot of hats to wear, but that’s what makes the job so unique — and uniquely challenging.
Why CPOs Deserve a Medal (or at Least a Nap)
Donald shared a moment that really hit home for me. He was chatting with a fellow CPO who told him, “I went fractional because I want to make more and do less.” Naturally, Donald was like, “Wait a second, unpack that for me.” And what she laid out is something every HR leader can relate to.
She explained that the role is already thankless in so many ways — you’re always doing critical work behind the scenes, rarely getting the recognition you deserve. Then you pile on the chaos we’ve all been living through: pay transparency laws, navigating reproductive rights access, contact tracing, return-to-office policies — the list goes on. Any one of those would be enough to make a sane person lose it, but these all hit HR leaders back-to-back over the last few years.
And it doesn’t stop there. Civil unrest, societal issues, DE&I pressures, layoffs, hiring freezes, hiring overages — plus the ever-complicated relationships with boards and exec teams. It’s not just a lot; it’s everything, all at once.
Fractional leaders have a chance to create impact across more than one organization, and to get the ball rolling in each of those places for a long-term successor to pick it up and run with it.
Donald sees this shift as an opportunity: “That’s why you see not just myself, but other leaders that have taken on either more responsibility or went to a company that’s even larger to help create more impact,” he says. “I think that’s why you see that, because that resiliency, there’s something about being forged through the fire.”
Finding Your Village: How Tribes Keep HR Leaders Sane
The last few years have been a trial by fire for HR leaders. But for Donald, resilience comes from the communities you build and the people who lift you up during tough times. He stresses that no one should navigate these challenges alone.
“The village of the leadership team that I was on, coupled with the village of the directs on my team, coupled with the village I had with people that sat in this role at other companies, that’s what made it easier to do the job every day,” he says.
Donald has found that the strongest villages extend beyond HR. “I’ve had the opportunity to connect with peers in other disciplines, meaning outside of people teams, outside of HR, and I’ve been able to connect with CEOs who value the profession,” he says. “And so I think while the forecast may look dreary or cloudy, there are bright moments and rainbows in this proverbial storm in other leaders.”
If leading through chaos has left you feeling singed, take heart: the fire doesn’t just burn — it forges.
People in This Episode
- Donald Knight: LinkedIn
Transcript
Kyle Lagunas:
Hello, my little blueberries. Welcome back to Transformation Realness, the only show all about people who are doing their best to make the world of work less sh*tty and who are brave enough to tell their stories: the good, the bad, and most of all, the real.
It’s produced in partnership with Rep Cap Media and hosted by yours truly, the ever-radiant Kyle Lagunas, Head of Strategy and Principal Analyst at Aptitude Research, which as you know is the leading boutique research firm covering HR and transformation.
Special thanks to the team over at Glider AI. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I know I make this seem absolutely effortless, but the talent transformation ecosystem EP wouldn’t be possible without their support.
Kyle Lagunas:
Today I am chatting with a very special person, Donald Knight, who is the Group Senior Vice President of People and Culture at Warner Brothers. He’s out here proving that resilience isn’t just a buzzword: it is a lifestyle. From leading through uncertainty to finding new ways to create impact, Donald’s story is all about navigating the tough moments with authenticity, purpose, and just the right amount of swagger. If you’ve ever wondered how to build your village and keep showing up when the going gets rough, this conversation is going to hit you right where it counts. Let’s dive in.
Donald Knight, hello.
Donald Knight:
Kyle. Thank you for having me, man. This is pretty amazing. I know we’ve been working to try to figure this thing out.
Kyle Lagunas:
I know.
Donald Knight:
I’m excited that we were able to make it happen.
Kyle Lagunas:
I think actually you even had a baby in between us trying to coordinate a pod.
Donald Knight:
I had a phenomenal baby girl. Princess Avery.
Kyle Lagunas:
Avery.
Donald Knight:
Absolutely runs everything in my house. The world centers around her. She’s the first granddaughter on both sides.
Kyle Lagunas:
Oh, so everyone’s obsessed.
Donald Knight:
Lots of attention on Avery.
Kyle Lagunas:
Oh, my God.
Donald Knight:
Yeah, lots of attention. We’re playing Charlie Puth in the background.
Kyle Lagunas:
That’s so cute. Well, I want to talk to you, because you’ve had this really interesting opportunity to work as not just a Chief HR executive, but leading a people team in a company that actually supports people teams, which is Greenhouse. And you recently left there, but when we started talking about what do we want to talk about, I wanted to lean into that, especially because of what we all were coming out of at that point, but do you want to talk to me a little bit, what is it like being a Chief People Officer in an HR tech company when everything’s literally on fire in HR?
Donald Knight:
It’s funny. So, let me preface by saying, I know Pat at UKG, Ashley at Workday, Heather formally at Gem, and Kara formally at Lattice, right? So, I will say that there’s a community of us that really rally behind one another to make sure that we’re supportive. I do think it is unlike any other CPO role in the sense that I think there’s three lenses that typically we have to operate through at all times. I think the first one is how do you shepherd culture and take care of your people? That’s rather consistent at every company. The nuance here though is because it’s HR tech, everyone in the organization is prioritizing on how do you deliver value to that group and to that leader? And so everyone… There’s a tendency for everyone to believe they’ve specialized in people, which I think is a good thing, at least aspirationally. I do think that there’s some nuances around, have you actually walked in the shoes of the folks in the profession?
Kyle Lagunas:
Yeah. Have y’all done it? Right.
Donald Knight:
But I think that’s a nuance, because everyone in the profession, at other companies, they’re looked at as resident expert on people. I think there’s a nuance there.
Kyle Lagunas:
Well, you’ve got a whole culture of people that are supposed to care about the people function, right?
Donald Knight:
So, I think that’s a positive thing. So, I can honestly say that being at an HR tech company, people care about people, but how you express that care is probably going to be nuanced based on your experiences. So, I think shepherding that culture and those people, it’s just a very different role at an HR tech company. I think the second one is your peers then appear to lean on you to say, “Hey, how can you encourage the product to be better? How can you deliver greater value for me and my team?” If they’re up for renewals, they’re like, “Hey, how can you help me get a better price?” And they know that we’re feeling the same compression that they’re feeling in the market, where CFOs and boards are saying, “Hey, you got to really do more with less.” Right? So, I-
Kyle Lagunas:
Yeah, right. The jig is up.
Donald Knight:
… Yeah. So, I do think there’s an expectation from your peers who are now customers for you to be an advocate for them in those rooms, which I think is cool. I think that’s where the opportunities to be more commercially minded and help influence the product. And we had a phenomenal… Greenhouse, still has a phenomenal Chief Product Officer, although I’m no longer there, in Henry and I appreciate his patience with me and hoping to help try to influence that roadmap.
Kyle Lagunas:
Oh, why? Do you have some ideas? You got some thoughts?
Donald Knight:
I think the third thing though that is nuanced is then there’s also an expectation for you to be almost like evangelizing on behalf of the brand and all of the women that I just listed, they do that very well for their brands.
Kyle Lagunas:
And authentically.
Donald Knight:
Authentically. But that’s an added element, right?
Kyle Lagunas:
Sure.
Donald Knight:
So, hopping on planes…
Kyle Lagunas:
And you say nuance. I also say pressure, too.
Donald Knight:
Yeah.
Kyle Lagunas:
I mean especially you’re out there evangelizing. I have to wonder, do you have a bigger target on your back as a people leader? Are people looking at your Glassdoor reviews be like, “Well, is this guy practicing what he preaches out here?”
Donald Knight:
I mean, absolutely, right?
Kyle Lagunas:
“Are they delivering excellence internally?” And you know what I mean? “How can they make me excellent if they’re not actually delivering on the home front?”
Donald Knight:
Yeah, I think there is a heightened sense of “walk it like you talk it,” and particularly in the down moments. So, when you’re growing the company at 40%, 50% year-over-year and everybody’s getting bonuses and equity-
Kyle Lagunas:
Feels good.
Donald Knight:
… values are going up, that’s a good thing.
Kyle Lagunas:
This is rah-rah.
Donald Knight:
I think the true test of the CPOs, and this is where my… I have a lot of empathy for those folks that sit in that role, particularly the role period, but then CPOs at HR tech companies, is think about the down moments, layoffs, heightened senses of churn, slowed growth. These are all things that most companies experienced over the last months, years. It’s a heightened sense when you’re then the CPO at an HR tech company because they’re like, “Hold on. Are you going to walk it like you talk it?” And literally people will pull sound bites from podcasts like this to say, “Hey, well, this is what you said when you met with Kyle.”
Kyle Lagunas:
All right, cut the tapes. I feel that. I mean, that’s rough, isn’t it? I mean, do you feel… Look, we have to sell authenticity, right? Everybody’s looking to see if you’re real, but can you be really real? Maybe with your peeps? Maybe that’s why you started with, “Here’s my tribe.”
Donald Knight:
So, I think to your point, tribes, I call it subscribe to that idea or villages, I would say the village of the leadership team that I was on, coupled with the village of the directs on my team, coupled with the village I had with people that sat in this role at other companies, that’s what made it easier to do the job every day.
And so I was just spending… I left LA to come here, and I was spending a lot of time with some of those folks in person, and I just wanted to thank them for the encouragement, because it is a very nuanced role. I think if I step back a little bit, I think the role of being a chief people officer at any company over the last five years is by far the hardest role, probably next to the CEO, probably the hardest role and I think having spent a lot of time with CEOs, especially some of the ones that were trying to poach me, I have a heightened sense-
Kyle Lagunas:
She popular, huh?
Donald Knight:
… Look, I thank the creator for the favor, but I will say the CEO role is more lonelier than I had anticipated prior to, and I think the CPO role is probably the next loneliest role. And so trying to find those tribes or villages, if you will, to help be supportive. I would encourage all CPOs, especially CPOs of HR tech companies, because you need it.
Kyle Lagunas:
Yeah, I mean, literally you can’t go it alone. You know what’s so interesting? In my podcast last season, I was talking to this guy, John Baldino, he’s the-
Donald Knight:
I know John.
Kyle Lagunas:
… Isn’t he the sweetest? Literally the nicest guy.
Donald Knight:
John’s amazing.
Kyle Lagunas:
But we were talking about complexity with compliance. Literally there is so much coming down, in North America at least, or especially, all of this hangover from COVID and the political strife. There’s just a bunch coming at HR, and he’s worried, because a lot of HR professionals, not just the exec leader, they’re out and they’re burnt out and he’s worried and rightly so. A lot of young people are like, “Hey, you know what? This is not for me.” Right?
Donald Knight:
Yeah. There’s a CPO who will listen to this, because we both know them, but I will preserve their anonymity. She told me yesterday, she was like, “The reason I went fractional is because I want to make more and do less.” And I was like, “Hold on, let me explore that a little bit. What do you mean by that?” She was like, the role is already very much thankless in many regards. And then when you add on the complexities, let’s set aside any of the regular drama of the role.
Kyle Lagunas:
Yeah. Of just the work.
Donald Knight:
Of just the work. You talked about compliance. We got pay transparency, access or the lack of access to reproductive rights, contact tracing and return to office. That all hit the same leaders over the last three to five years. That alone just, if you just bucket that in by itself, that’s enough to drive a sane person mad. And then you add on civil unrest, societal issues, DE&I, then add on reductions in force, layoffs, and then add on, “Did you hire too much or did you not hire enough?” And then add on board complexities.
Kyle Lagunas:
And then also add on navigating artificial intelligence now.
Donald Knight:
So, that’s the promise of the future that I hope we’ll make.
Kyle Lagunas:
Because you’re here. You’re still here, you didn’t leave. You’re actually going to an even bigger company.
Donald Knight:
Absolutely.
Kyle Lagunas:
Right?
Donald Knight:
Absolutely.
Kyle Lagunas:
You’re like, “You know what? Let’s do more. Let’s do more and work more.”
Donald Knight:
Yeah. So, what I will say is I do believe that there are people in these roles right now, Kyle, that there, while they have been tested, they have proven to be resilient. And so such a time is this for those folks to be able to continue to rise to the occasion. And I think that’s why you see not just myself, but other leaders that have taken on either more responsibility or went to a company that’s even larger to help create more impact. I think that’s why you see that, because that resiliency, there’s something about being forged through the fire that you’re like, “Oh, I can see what I’m actually made of.” And I think that’s one of the beautiful things of being a CPO at a HR tech company. The takeaways and the learnings that I have from there has directly influenced the way that I’m navigating my current role.
Kyle Lagunas:
You’re like, “You know what? Bet!”
Donald Knight:
Well, so then-
Kyle Lagunas:
I mean, look, I am not a cynical person, but I am a very empathetic and sensitive person, and I am a little worried about morale in the HR organization, broad brush, just the profession. But you’re giving me hope. Is there cause to be hopeful here? It’s been rough. It’s been rough, and we’re not even done. Do you feel hopeful?
Donald Knight:
… I do, because I believe I’ve had the opportunity to connect with peers in other disciplines, meaning outside of people teams, outside of HR and I’ve been able to connect with CEOs who value the profession. And so I think while the forecast may look dreary or cloudy, there are bright moments and rainbows in this proverbial storm in other leaders that I have found the optimism, right? Our CEO is one of them.
My onboarding process and even the way that I navigated the first few weeks, I was able to observe how much we’re a priority at our company. And I think I have other friends, like a good friend of mine, Gianna Driver at Lattice, they have a new CEO and Sarah Franklin. Sarah Franklin prioritizes the people function. She understands the competitive advantage that you will have when you have a phenomenal people team. So, I think those are the bright spots, right?
That’s where the optimism is, and I think that’s where it’s on us and really thankful for folks like yourself who are using your time to be able to say, “Hey, I’m going to make sure I focus on the research.” So much so that if you want to be able to demonstrate that resiliency and continue to face that storm every day, I got your back with this data. And also if you’re saying, “No, I need to go fractional.” Can I use this data to then be able to create even more impact in a short amount of time that someone else can then pick up the baton and carry it on?
Kyle Lagunas:
Yeah, sure.
Donald Knight:
So yeah, I think it’s a great time to be in the profession despite how hard it is to be in the profession.
Kyle Lagunas:
And look, if you made it this far, you’ll make it even further. I mean, I’m glad to hear it. I hope that it plays out that way for most and that you’re not just one of the blessed ones, although you are blessed and highly favored. But I also think that it truly is inspiring, because I know several of the people you’ve mentioned and the mission’s there. The passion is there. And I honestly feel like if I’m seeing… And I am seeing more people at that exact level going fractional, not just because they want to work less, … I’m not going to take their words away from them, but it’s like, “I want to do more and not work more necessarily. I want to have impact here and here I’ve actually figured I have a skill set, I have a competency that can have a lot of value in a lot of places. I’m going to step up and do that.” That’s relatively new for us. You have to be all in at that level for a lot of opportunities.
Donald Knight:
Yeah, I totally agree. I think two things I’ll leave you with is at our organization, we have almost five former CPOs.
Kyle Lagunas:
Really? Okay.
Donald Knight:
Almost. And the ones… The cool part is in each function that they’re in, they have up-leveled the function when they arrive, so I’m told by my peers. So, I do think that there’s this living life on purpose and still finding ways to create impact, particularly at a larger scale, I think is pretty phenomenal. I think the second thing I would say is my former Chief Revenue Officer in Sean Murray, who’s a phenomenal human being, he used to be the Chief Revenue Officer at Salesloft. And I think the cool thing about that is he walked through this before.
What we’re doing for our discipline and being a CPO at HR tech company, he had done that being a Chief Revenue Officer at a sales organization and the cool thing about it’s now he’s a CEO, and so what it tells me is that resiliency will play out over time to be able to help you create even more impact, and you might even get a more outsized role to be able to drive those types of successes and wins and so I think that’s where my optimism lies, is in those leaders and in those examples.
Kyle Lagunas:
Yeah. It’s not just blind aspiration.
Donald Knight:
Exactly.
Kyle Lagunas:
It’s informed, as we would expect. Well, dude, thank you for spending some time with me.
Donald Knight:
No, thank you for having me.
Kyle Lagunas:
I’m literally so excited for this next role for you. I hope you don’t forget us little people.
Donald Knight:
No, there’s no such little people and no, we’re connected, man. Thank you for having me for real.
Kyle Lagunas:
Yeah, thanks for coming on.
Donald Knight:
All right.
Kyle Lagunas:
I’ll catch you later.
Okay, that is a wrap y’all and if you’re anything like me, you’re going to need a minute to digest everything Donald just laid down, because whoa. That was a lot. We covered burnout, the rise of fractional leadership and why it’s critical to roll with your tribe or your village, whatever vernacular works for you.
Honestly, if leading in HR today feels like getting thrown into the fire, Donald just reminded us, or at least me, that sometimes it’s the fire that forges you. I’ve got so many notes from this conversation. Big love to Donald for keeping it real with us today and for reminding me that it’s okay to want more impact without selling your soul. If you made it this far, you’re already ahead of the game. That’s all the time we’ve got for now. Don’t forget to like and subscribe, rate and review and tell your fellow humans, because this realness isn’t going to spread itself. Catch you on the next episode of Transformation Realness. Until then, keep it real and keep it moving.
