On this episode of Transformation Realness, Kyle Lagunas is talking with Keith Sonderling, former commissioner at the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC). Keith is a trailblazer in HR tech policy, and believes HR leaders are uniquely positioned to guide organizations through the responsible adoption of AI tools.
“Everyone wants to make this world so difficult to understand, where you know you’re not going to be able to keep up with it, so ignore it and just implement it,” Keith says. “Or on the flip side … it’s too complicated, so let’s just not move forward.”
Neither of these attitudes is the right approach. We can’t afford to avoid AI, but we need to assume its risks, too. And that’s exactly the thoughtful, balanced approach that Keith spearheaded during his time as EEOC commissioner. “If there’s ways to help us make employment decisions more fair, more transparent, and without bias, we should be all for that,” he says.
Keith and I cover everything from AI’s role in amplifying HR’s effectiveness to the importance of HR literacy in these new technologies. Whether you’re overwhelmed by the rapid pace of change or excited about AI’s possibilities, this conversation will leave you with actionable insights on how to lead responsibly in this evolving space.
AI Isn’t Creating New Decisions — It’s Just Making the Old Ones Better
First things first, let’s address the elephant in the room — AI in HR. Keith made it crystal clear that this train has left the station, my friends. AI is no longer some far-off, futuristic concept in our world: It’s here, it’s real, and we better start figuring out how to use it the right way.
That’s why Keith wants to address one of the biggest misconceptions about AI: that it’s fundamentally changing HR processes. “At the end of the day, AI has not created a new employment decision,” he explains. “All AI is doing is either making those for you or giving you more data, augmenting it.” AI isn’t inventing new ways to hire, promote or fire — it’s enhancing the decisions HR has always made by providing better, more transparent data.
But with innovation comes fear: fear of bias, fear of lawsuits and fear of the unknown. Keith acknowledges this but challenges HR leaders to reframe the narrative. “If we don’t move to this, we’re going to stick with the status quo, and the status quo has issues within itself,” he warns. By addressing these risks head-on, HR can use AI to make employment practices not only more efficient but also more equitable.
HR Professionals Are the Stewards of AI in the Workplace
Let’s get one thing straight: HR is no stranger to high-stakes decisions, and Keith believes that HR’s role is only growing. “It doesn’t matter what industry you’re in: HR is highly regulated,” Keith says. “But that’s where I’ve been trying to empower everyone in the HR functions, saying you’ve been dealing with a much higher risk area your entire career than other parts of your business, because you’re dealing with people’s ability to provide for their families, to enter and thrive in the workforce.”
That’s why, as we enter the AI era, Keith believes that it’s your time to step up as trusted guardians of your business and its people.
And that means you can’t sit back and let someone else figure out the tech. AI literacy is a core competency for HR and talent acquisition — because we’re not just here to make sure AI complies with the law. We’re here to align it with our company’s values, ethics and vision. This is our time to lead, and we can’t afford to miss the opportunity.
Bringing the Government and HR Worlds Together, Finally
One of Keith’s biggest wins during his time at the EEOC? Bringing government regulators and HR pros to the same table. “The EEOC is the biggest show in town for HR technology. And the EEOC … was completely absent,” he admitted. Keith didn’t just sit behind a desk during his tenure. He got out there — talking to everyone from venture capitalists to HR leaders to ensure the voices shaping workplace technology understood what was at stake.
Keith believes most companies want to do the right thing, but making that happen requires partnership and open dialogue. Keith showed us what it looks like to create a bridge between innovation and regulation. And here’s the kicker: HR pros are the best ones to walk that line. We understand the people side and the compliance side, which means we’re uniquely qualified to steer this ship toward a future where AI serves everyone.
The future of HR is all about embracing responsible AI, and Keith brought that message loud and clear. We have a unique opportunity to be the stewards of trust in our organizations, to make sure AI is used to build a better, fairer workplace for everyone. HR isn’t just about compliance anymore — it’s about being leaders in this new era of work. So let’s lean in, get literate, and guide our companies toward a future where AI serves us all responsibly.
People in This Episode
- Keith Sonderling: LinkedIn
Transcript
Kyle Lagunas:
Hello, my little blueberries and welcome back to Transformation Realness, the only show all about people who are doing their best to make the world of work less shitty and have the guts to share their story: the good, the bad, and most of all, the real.
It’s produced in partnership with Rep Cap Media and hosted by yours truly, Kyle Lagunas, head of Strategy and Principal Analyst at Aptitude Research. Hiee, today’s guest … Oh, it’s a reunion, folks. I am joined by none other than Keith Sonderling, commish, my very first podcast guest. Yes. Maybe you recall. But this time Keith is fresh off a major career move having just wrapped up his term as commissioner of the EEOC.
Yes. The man is technically unemployed. But if you know Keith, if you are familiar with his work, then you know that the world is literally his oyster at this moment. And it is a huge honor that he took a moment to sit down with us while he was scoping out what’s next.
This episode today is packed with real talk about the intersection of AI, HR and civil rights, and honestly, how Keith’s leadership has helped HR professionals embrace tech without losing sight of ethics. We riff on the evolving role of HR, the rising need for AI literacy and why doing nothing isn’t an option when the status quo is, well, kind of dumpster fire.
From the struggles of mental health accommodations to the challenges of getting AI adoption right, this conversation is one for the books. Let’s dive in.
I’m really excited to be joined by a dear friend, dare I say colleague, Keith Sonderling.
Keith Sonderling:
Thank you for having me. I’m really excited to be chatting with you in this really nice booth and setup you have. We’ve done this podcast virtually, but now we’re doing it live.
Kyle Lagunas:
For those who don’t know, who are you, Keith?
Keith Sonderling:
I am Keith Sonderling, formerly the commissioner of the United States Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. I’m no longer the commissioner. My term ended, but my desire and passion to stay in the HR space lives on because I’m here live at HR Tech in Las Vegas.
Kyle Lagunas:
Let’s go baby. Let’s go. So, you’re technically unemployed right now?
Keith Sonderling:
I am unemployed and a good place to be unemployed at an HR conference with a lot of recruiters. At the EEOC, you have terms.
Kyle Lagunas:
Didn’t get fired.
Keith Sonderling:
It was a term, and the term came to end, and I only wanted to do it one time. So, to continue on, I’d have to be renominated and go through the Senate confirmation process, which I could have done. I just knew I wanted to do it one time, make a big impact and leave. And I think that’s really important in these roles. But they’re not career positions. I mean, a lot of these high-level government jobs.
Kyle Lagunas:
It would inevitably, the leadership in the role would stagnate or it would warp. There’s just too much vulnerability in being in that position of extreme authority and influence. I mean, there have been many people who have been in your role who have done really important work in the commissionership. But especially at this point in time when artificial intelligence is literally everywhere and compliance is literally all over the place.
And I mean, I’m a geriatric millennial, so what do I know about the history of HR? But I feel like it has never been this hard and your leadership in this space, especially around the use of AI in HR, there hasn’t been very much federal legislation to regulate the use of this to inform the ethical and responsible use of it.
But that hasn’t stopped you from going out and talking about, well, look, and I love what you always say, “Position of EEOC has not changed. You cannot discriminate based on gender and race and religious background.” And I just feel like it has been really powerful for you to come out and say, “In the absence of legislative guidance, I’m going to come out and give you” … The story is the same. And you actually did it with confidence and with humility. It was really refreshing in our space.
Keith Sonderling:
I think you could write my biography of my time in the EEOC. How much do I have to pay you? Thank you. But in all seriousness, when you get in these jobs, especially at the EEOC being the regulator of HR, you realize that, like in HR there’s always fires to put out. There’s always something distracting you from the next big issue.
And I think what was important for me getting into this role coming off COVID, coming off the Me Too movement, coming off all these lingering issues with pay equity, is how do we be proactive? How do we get ahead of the next biggest issue in HR, instead of being reactive, which is a lot of what HR is, just because that’s the nature of the job. There’s just always something going on. There’s always something to distract you.
So, that’s why I picked up HR technology and artificial intelligence in the workplace. I was really the first regulator to talk about AI in this space, and really one of the first regulators broadly to talk about the implications of AI. And when I got into it, like you, I’m a very big fan of a lot of the software. I think if there’s programs, if there’s ways to help us make employment decisions more fair, more transparent, and without bias, we should be all for that.
But a lot of the negativity from AI and workplace technologies leads the conversation, especially out of DC, “Oh, it’s going to discriminate. Oh, it’s going to take all the jobs.” And look, all of that is possible, but we have to balance that with a positive side of it as well. So, that’s what I started digging into it as a worthy cause to take up.
And to what you alluded to, everyone wants to complicate it. Everyone wants to make this world so difficult to understand where you’re not going to be able to keep up with it, so ignore it and just implement it. Or on the flip side …
Kyle Lagunas:
Put your head in the sand.
Keith Sonderling:
… it’s too complicated, so let’s just not move forward. And I think both of those have problems. On the frontend side of that, if you’re saying, “Well, there’s too many potential risks of this and we don’t understand it.” Well, okay, let’s stick the status quo.
Kyle Lagunas:
You’ll never understand it.
Keith Sonderling:
Right. Right.
Kyle Lagunas:
You know what? Risk is the big fear. But I don’t actually find anybody … In the beginning, I feel like we are maturing very quickly here, thankfully. But people weren’t really evaluating risk. They were assuming risk and then avoiding it.
Keith Sonderling:
Or just saying, “We’ll deal with it later.”
Kyle Lagunas:
Yeah. Kicking it down the road.
Keith Sonderling:
Or we’re just not going to deal with any of these innovations and not take that risk associated with it. And I always argue that’s not great.
Kyle Lagunas:
Which completely de-risks their entire HR process, right?
Keith Sonderling:
Guess what? The way that humans have been doing this, no offense to everybody in this community, hasn’t been great to begin with. That’s why we’re at this conference. That’s why there’s so many innovative vendors in this space to make a very difficult process that has been not efficient, that has had serious bias issues, which is the reason the EEOC was created in the last two years, have collected $1.2 billion from employers violating these laws that there’s a problem.
And so, to not move forward into some of these technological advances that make these decisions not more efficient, not just better, faster hires, but actually removing bias and actually allowing workers to get the jobs that they’re the most qualified for and employers to actually fill those needs is something we should all be very positive on, and not just the negative.
So, one who is reframing it, too, and just saying, “If we don’t move to this, we’re going to stick with the status quo.” And the status quo has issues within itself. So, it’s just a different way of looking at this. But to your point where it really made the most impact is by going back to the basics and saying, “With all these fancy AI tools, with all these vendors out there, at the end of the day, AI has not created a new employment decision.”
There’s only a finite amount of employment decisions, hiring, firing, wages, training, promotions, benefits, demotions, terminations. There’s not a new one.
Kyle Lagunas:
No.
Keith Sonderling:
So, all AI is doing is either making those for you or giving you more data, augmenting it, all these different words. But at the end of the day, there’s an employment decision.
Kyle Lagunas:
The process hasn’t really actually changed.
Keith Sonderling:
Not at all. And in a sense, they’re changing in the positive where now you could actually go back and show exactly how you made that employment decision.
Kyle Lagunas:
Yeah. The how is changing.
Keith Sonderling:
Versus how we were worrying when you’re accused of doing wrong or making a bad employment decision, not just on the bias side, just, “Oh, why did you make this terrible hire?”
Kyle Lagunas:
And you have no documentation either way or the other?
Keith Sonderling:
And you have documentation. And then you’re defensive versus this is exactly what we looked at. At the time, this was the best decision, whether it’s lawful.
Kyle Lagunas:
This is what we looked at, specifically. This is what we didn’t look at, right?
Keith Sonderling:
Exactly. We didn’t have that before. So, in a lot of ways, it can help the whole process from start to finish. But that’s getting over the fear of that, “Oh, no. The government’s going to rue this.” “Oh, no. Our fear of class action lawyers, if we make this mistake is going to prevent us from implementing this stuff.” And I’ve really been trying to change the narrative there.
Kyle Lagunas:
So, do you think this AI thing’s going to stick then, huh?
Keith Sonderling:
I’ve said that it’s no longer a question, are you going to use AI in your HR process? Not just on the hiring side, not just on the recruiting offer side, but through the entire employee lifecycle, from performance reviews to management of the employees of what they’re supposed to be doing, to compensation determinations, to even termination decisions. We’re past that point.
It’s just reframing it. AI is here. It’s happening. You have to use it to stay competitive. But let’s just reframe the question to saying, “How are we going to use it?”
Kyle Lagunas:
Exactly?
Keith Sonderling:
“What are we going to use it for? What vendors are we going to get in bed with to make these very big decisions? And how are they going to ensure not only are they complying with the law?” that’s one part of it. “But how are you complying with your own company’s ethics, civility codes, moral conducts?”
Because every company’s different and they have to ingrain into your organization as well because they’re going to be the ones as if they’re your new hiring managers. So, they have to understand your culture as well and what your principles and ethics and beliefs. And that goes from the CEO all the way down to what that company believes and how hiring practices and performance practices should be done.
Kyle Lagunas:
Let me ask you. So, commissionership has wrapped. You are a free man. But I have to imagine, because you’ve done so much work, I mean, literally on the road every single week for most of the week, for the entire commissionership, what are you most proud of?
Keith Sonderling:
Being able to learn a trade, being able to learn a whole area that we are the sole regulator for. The EEOC is the biggest show in town for HR technology. And the EEOC before I started doing this and being on the road was completely absent. And what that allowed me to do was learn the entire, and I’m going to drop a tech word on you, ecosystem. And to be able to properly regulate this, to be able to properly look at it, you have to look at the whole chain.
And the EEOC, since the 1960s, has known basically three groups, unions, employers, staffing agencies, and a fourth obviously, employees and applicants. But now, you have VC companies and private equity looking to invest, and they don’t want to invest in products that are going to violate civil rights law.
You have the entrepreneurs who are smart enough to make this technology and help us solve this problem. They don’t want to build technology that’s going to violate civil rights laws. And then you have the people, like I joke around in the worst position, are the buyers, the companies who have to make that determination not only what vendor to pick, but then how to implement it within your organization.
And everyone was speaking different languages. Everyone was talking to each other from their perspective, but what was their interest in these products. And for me, I had to learn all those different considerations to be able then to properly say, “Well, here’s the landscape from A to Z. Here’s all the different concerns.” But at the end of the day, the most important concern is the civil rights implications of your applicants, of your employees, and you’re all involved in that. But we, the regulator, was nowhere to be found.
Kyle Lagunas:
Yeah. Right.
Keith Sonderling:
So, that’s why I did that. Not only to be able to get out there and learn the technology, learn various functions within HR that are very complicated that you don’t understand unless you practice there. Most DC people and lawyers like myself just don’t get. But also, leading some of my now closest friends, like you, and really just being able to ingrain myself in that.
Kyle Lagunas:
There’s a lot of heart in the space, isn’t there? You mean, honestly, the work that we do is really important, and I think that because it’s so hard and because it’s thankless, we forget how important the work is. You know what’s interesting though, I feel like there has been a parallel between your journey and the HR profession itself.
We have actually had to do that learning that you have done. We have had to lean in and figure out what is this? How does this work? What doesn’t this do? How can I use this responsibly and effectively at the same time? I’ve got to get something done. How am I going to do that? HR has been on that same journey. You’ve been right there with us.
Keith Sonderling:
And it’s amazing, too, because these governance terms that HR really never had any involvement in. And a lot of these keeping up with regulations and legislation, it’s just changed. Coming from DC, HR is now at the front and center of a lot of senators, the White House mind, where it wasn’t before the pandemic, it wasn’t in that.
So, it’s also a learning experience, too, for everyone in this community to hear directly from me, from DC saying, “I’m not making this up. These are the concerns of the agency. These are the concerns of Congress. These are the concerns of the White House. And it literally implicates your daily job.” And it’s just a new way of thinking where other industries, where other parts of the business are really involved in that regulation scene.
So, I think it’s a really cool experience for HR professionals now as their practice elevates. As you see CHROs now are the CEO’s best friend, like the CFOs wars getting on boards. Well, that’s part of, in a sense, growing up, is now dealing with this highly regulatory environment, which is across all industries. It doesn’t matter what industry you’re in, HR is highly regulated.
But that’s where I’ve been trying to empower everyone in the HR function saying, “You’ve been dealing with some much higher risk area your entire career than other parts of your business, because dealing with people’s ability to provide for their families to enter and thrive in the workforce. So, you’re familiar with this. This is what you know. We’re just now throwing all these fancy new terms into it.
Kyle Lagunas:
I know. HR has always gotten a pass for not being very tech-savvy and for implementing a new ATS or a new piece of software in HR. You just had to have a project team that knew how to implement the software, and that was enough. Not everybody needed to know what an API was. Not everybody needed to know what a custom field was. We didn’t need to know the software stuff.
But I feel like now AI literacy is a core competency for HR. And for talent acquisition, we are change agents ourselves. We’re not just policy police. We need to actually know what this stuff is in a way that matters in my day-to-day, because we’re stewards of a lot of these things and we’re the frontline for a lot of these things.
Keith Sonderling:
If you’re in the area, that’s easy to understand, and I don’t want HR professionals to lose sight of how impactful they can be, because when you think about practical uses of AI that companies are using, not just reviewing millions of documents or making shipping routes faster, everyone at some point has had a resume. Everyone has applied for a job. And that’s a familiar aspect for most employees. And now that you’re dealing with AI in this sense, you can lead it because you can explain it.
Kyle Lagunas:
We’re like stewards of trust in this new era. Oh, it’s so interesting.
Keith Sonderling:
Right. You talking about responsible AI, there’s so many panels on that. It’s such a hot topic. That’s where I’m encouraging HR leaders to say, “Well, here is an actual use you understand. Everyone’s applied for a job. Here’s how AI is going to impact that, and here’s how we’re going to do it responsibly within our organization,” versus if we said, “Well, here’s how we’re going to use AI to make a new pharmaceutical drug.” We wouldn’t understand anything of it.
Kyle Lagunas:
Nobody would. They’re really cool.
Keith Sonderling:
Versus, “Hey, here’s how AI is going to look at your performance review over the course of year.
Kyle Lagunas:
Yeah. Absolutely. Every single person can understand it. Yeah.
Keith Sonderling:
It’s not like people analytics software. And here, you can actually understand it. It doesn’t require an advanced science degree or math or finance. It’s dealing with humans and dealing with an aspect that everyone in every industry has dealt with.
Kyle Lagunas:
Right. Yeah. Right. Well, all right. Let me ask you, what’s one thing that you would have done differently? Or what’s one thing that sticks with you now?
Keith Sonderling:
I don’t know if it’s about doing something differently. I think it’s more about what else could I have tackled? And it took a lot of time to focus my efforts on AI because it’s just a global issue on the technology, all the different people involved. I call that my hobby. But the day job was dealing with all the cases of discrimination in the U.S. and the tens of thousands of new cases, 80,000 to 100,000 new cases every single year.
So, I think there’s still a lot of huge issues impacting HR that are at the forefront. And mental health in the workplace is significantly a bigger issue now for employers dealing with some of the accommodation requests that employees are asking, especially with a lot of the return to office mandates. So, there’s just always something that needs to be tackled, that you just don’t have the resources, you don’t have the time to. Everything, too, with pay equity and all the pay movements, there’s just so much to do and so much to tackle.
Kyle Lagunas:
The work’s not done.
Keith Sonderling:
The work’s not done. In a lot of sense, it’s not even started in a lot of these areas.
Kyle Lagunas:
Exactly. Yes.
Keith Sonderling:
You think about some of the issues still we …
Kyle Lagunas:
We’re just getting started.
Keith Sonderling:
… see the systemic issues with pregnant applicants and pregnant workers in the workplace, and some of the discrimination issues they face, disabled workers. There’s just always something. So, I wouldn’t say if I could go back and change anything, it’s just almost you need more time. The more resources you have, the more investigations we’d have in that sense so there’s always something.
Kyle Lagunas:
Well, I have a feeling that we’re still going to see you around, that your voice is going to carry through. But I also do hope that your, I don’t know if it’s successor, but the current commish, I guess, may I call them that? I hope that they see the value in the work that you’ve done and continue to carry that torch, because we need that level of guidance, but we also need that level of connection to our governing bodies. How can you effectively regulate anything if you aren’t connected to it in that kind of way?
Keith Sonderling:
Yeah. And I think I’ve used this position to elevate what government officials at my level can do. And whether it’s at the FTC or the SEC, you could use your position to go out there and people will listen. Instead of just using your position in court through government investigations or litigations, which is what these agencies normally do. You know why? Because it’s a home-field advantage.
Because I don’t need to tell you what to do. I’m the government. I have investigators. I have lawyers. At the end of the day, I can just file claims against your company, investigate it and go to court.
Kyle Lagunas:
You are so sued.
Keith Sonderling:
Right. And that’s how normally you don’t have guidance, you don’t know how to change versus, “Hey. Be proactive. Whatever industry you’re in, they will welcome you.” Because most employers, the vast majority of employers want to get it right.
Kyle Lagunas:
Yeah. They want to get it right.
Keith Sonderling:
They just need the tools to be able to do that. They really don’t want to be in the limelight.
Kyle Lagunas:
I love that. It’s not just like, “I’m afraid of getting it wrong.” It’s actually we want to get this right.
Keith Sonderling:
Right.
Kyle Lagunas:
Well, I love it. And honestly, this is why we’re friends, is because you are truly a civil servant. And I think that you’ve given so much to our space and your time. I can’t wait to see what you do next. I love you, buddy.
Keith Sonderling:
I love you, too. And I’ll be in this area. I’m not leaving. I’ll be still hovering above you, making sure you’re compliant.
Kyle Lagunas:
Well, you can’t sue me now. You can’t bring a case against me. All right. Well, thanks Keith. I’ll see you more soon, bud.
Keith Sonderling:
Thanks, Kyle.
Kyle Lagunas:
Well, folks, that is a wrap. If today’s conversation with Keith taught us anything, it’s this. HR isn’t just keeping up, it’s evolving. Whether it’s navigating bias, getting real about compliance, or becoming stewards of AI, there’s no room today for staying on autopilot. The status quo, mm-mm, not cutting it. Keith, huge thanks for joining me again, dropping wisdom reminding us that avoiding risk isn’t the answer. Navigating it is.
HR pros, the bar has been raised. AI literacy is no longer optional. It is an absolute must. He may be off the government payroll, but you better believe he’s still out here keeping an eye on all of us. Thanks for listening, my little blueberries, that’s all the time we have for today. Until next time, keep it real, keep it human and keep transforming. Catch you on the next episode.
